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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 8, 2013 8:25:38 GMT -7
There will be a fixed schedule set prior to the season start.I have a slight issue with this. It seems that there is always a few players on the fence about joining the season. I like an "end of week one" deadline. That way players can still join and catch up on the week one. So a set schedule after week one, I'm all for. I pushed it this season and tried to get a few more players in after week 2 was done and got myself in trouble. Won't happen again. From now on I'll set a deadline. Then those players need to sack up and get off the fence. Sorry, I have hangups of full schedules not being released ahead of time.Obscenely large models may not be used.What is obscenely large? To me, if you can fit it on a 40mm base, it's good. Some of the Euro Fantasy Football models are huge. Yet I'm quite sure there was a HUGE discussion about 30mm bases prior to this season's start. To the point where I almost dropped out because of it. They were in the original house rules YOU created. Now 40mm is ok?Timers are optional, but if one coach desires the use of a timer, then both coaches must use the timer.Our league has spoken on this one. And I will continue to bring it up between EVERY DAMN SEASON until it's changed. Timers make better players, and the overall goal should be to increase the level of competition in the league every season, not keep it stagnant.4-8 Coaches: Top 4 Teams
9-15 Coaches: Top 6 Teams (Top two places receive a first round bye)
16+ Coaches: Top 8 TeamsI hate byes. I will avoid them at any cost. They kill momentum in a lot of cases. Also, the more people play, the happier they are. Then you limit the playoff numbers to 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. Byes are not evil, and my set up does an excellent job of mitigating byes and rewarding the top 2 teams with a rest week. You could even make the entire playoffs a single event as there will only be 3 rounds played.The Pre-season, Regular season and Post season stuff. Way to complicated and limiting. I was thinking spiraling expenses starting at 2,000, but that's all stuff we need to work out. Again, all this is JUST my opinion. In the off-season we have some issues to refine. The spiraling expenses number was thrown out there, it may very well need to be adjusted based on how this first season plays out. I have a feeling 2000 maybe too high. Perpetual leagues are not easy. They are complex. People must accept that they are complex. If you aren't willing to put in the work for a league that might run over a decade, then why discuss it at all. obbl.org/league/ has been running for over a decade with basically the same fucking rules. So clearly it's way too complex for anyone to understand. Oh...wait...it's not. Why do I seem pissed? Because I hear the same complexity whine every time I bring up a perpetual league scenario. And while I appreciate the ideas that came before mine (they WERE a step in the right direction) I'm against significant freebies or penalizing teams for their success. Everyone wants to be a better player, but no one wants to do the things that make a coach better. Everyone wants to develop a team, but no one wants to put in the work to develop it. It all seems to be about what can be done with the minimum amount of effort...I'll give you a hint, you get the minimum amount of return. Let's take the plunge try and make the entire league a group of strong players to challenge at these tourneys instead of staying a bunch of middling players who occasionally get shit right, myself included. I am not the player who'll keep quiet because I don't want to cause problems. I am the guy who will specifically yell because I'm an asshole. I'm well known for it. Flip side is, I get shit done. |
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Post by frogger4u on Mar 8, 2013 16:33:02 GMT -7
Im with hobbs on this one.
B.T.W. Any coach that wants a timer during this league, I have no problem playing with one
Frogger
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Post by Gearhead on Mar 8, 2013 19:44:51 GMT -7
Then those players need to sack up and get off the fence. Sorry, I have hangups of full schedules not being released ahead of time. It would be nice if everyone who signed up was committed and followed thru with playing. But it doesn't always happen that way. If you build an entire schedule, then several of your players can't be contacted or decide not to play, then you're building another schedule. And so on and so forth. It's time consuming and frustrating. Once I knew we were at 12 total, I built a full schedule.Yet I'm quite sure there was a HUGE discussion about 30mm bases prior to this season's start. To the point where I almost dropped out because of it. They were in the original house rules YOU created. Now 40mm is ok?As long as you and your opponent know what grid each specific 40mm based model is in, there isn't a problem. I put all of my stuff on 30mm bases. I have a enormous minotaur model who blocks out the sun, and he's on a 30mm base. And I will continue to bring it up between EVERY DAMN SEASON until it's changed. Timers make better players, and the overall goal should be to increase the level of competition in the league every season, not keep it stagnant.You can't force players to do something that pisses them off or frustrate them enough to not enjoy the game or the hobby. This is one of the differences between a casual league and a competitive league. Remember, for many players this is JUST a hobby. Many see it as a social, casual outlet.Then you limit the playoff numbers to 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. Byes are not evil, and my set up does an excellent job of mitigating byes and rewarding the top 2 teams with a rest week. You could even make the entire playoffs a single event as there will only be 3 rounds played.A rest week?? It's not like we're suiting up and taking to the pitch ourselves. So say we can't get everyone together for playoffs, and they have to be played like the season, every 2 weeks. Now I have a bye, but I can't play until near the end of my 2 week allotment. So now I haven't played Blood Bowl for close to a month.The spiraling expenses number was thrown out there, it may very well need to be adjusted based on how this first season plays out. I have a feeling 2000 maybe too high.
Perpetual leagues are not easy. They are complex. People must accept that they are complex. If you aren't willing to put in the work for a league that might run over a decade, then why discuss it at all. obbl.org/league/ has been running for over a decade with basically the same fucking rules. So clearly it's way too complex for anyone to understand. Oh...wait...it's not. Why do I seem pissed? Because I hear the same complexity whine every time I bring up a perpetual league scenario. And while I appreciate the ideas that came before mine (they WERE a step in the right direction) I'm against significant freebies or penalizing teams for their success. Everyone wants to be a better player, but no one wants to do the things that make a coach better. Everyone wants to develop a team, but no one wants to put in the work to develop it. It all seems to be about what can be done with the minimum amount of effort...I'll give you a hint, you get the minimum amount of return. Let's take the plunge try and make the entire league a group of strong players to challenge at these tourneys instead of staying a bunch of middling players who occasionally get shit right, myself included.I agree with the spiraling expenses. It will have to be worked out the closer we get to it. The Pre-Season, Regular Season, Post Season stuff is crap to me. Why take away games?? Why give deadlines and reguations for something as simple as a one-off pre-season game?? It's called practice. Let people play. Again, you're speaking of a competitive league. If you force shit down peoples' throats and riddle their hobby with deadlines and regulations I'll tell you what you're left with. Very few people to play Blood Bowl with.So why don't you form a competitive league?? You have OBBLM admin rights. I'd be in. Sounds like Frog would to. I'd help however I could. My whole goal with this thing was to get some people together to play Blood Bowl. Making everyone happy is impossible.
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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 9, 2013 10:01:36 GMT -7
Then those players need to sack up and get off the fence. Sorry, I have hangups of full schedules not being released ahead of time. It would be nice if everyone who signed up was committed and followed thru with playing. But it doesn't always happen that way. If you build an entire schedule, then several of your players can't be contacted or decide not to play, then you're building another schedule. And so on and so forth. It's time consuming and frustrating. Once I knew we were at 12 total, I built a full schedule.Sorry, I don't the whole "takes too long to remake a schedule" thing. I also don't see an issue where the league says "Sign up by X date, no new people after X date as the schedule will be set." Anyone old enough to play this game should have the responsibility to commit to at least signing up by a particular date. Drop outs suck, but they happen. I can literally make a new schedule inside of 10 minutes regardless of the number of people in a league, the time consumption is next to zero. Not building a schedule ahead of time screams of impropriety/cherry picking/nepotism/etc. I wouldn't even trust myself to build a schedule, I would want at least one other league member (if not several) around if I were to make a schedule. Yet I'm quite sure there was a HUGE discussion about 30mm bases prior to this season's start. To the point where I almost dropped out because of it. They were in the original house rules YOU created. Now 40mm is ok?As long as you and your opponent know what grid each specific 40mm based model is in, there isn't a problem. I put all of my stuff on 30mm bases. I have a enormous minotaur model who blocks out the sun, and he's on a 30mm base. That is the polar opposite of your attitude a few weeks ago. And I quote: " Also, squares on a BB pitch are 29mm. Bases that are too big (30mm or over) cannot be used." " You'll have to put a big guy on a 30mm base." Followed by..."Never said you had to rebase your models." "If you put a model in a grid, and the base is too big and it covers the grid, that's a problem." And I will continue to bring it up between EVERY DAMN SEASON until it's changed. Timers make better players, and the overall goal should be to increase the level of competition in the league every season, not keep it stagnant.You can't force players to do something that pisses them off or frustrate them enough to not enjoy the game or the hobby. This is one of the differences between a casual league and a competitive league. Remember, for many players this is JUST a hobby. Many see it as a social, casual outlet.Like play with arbitrary rules that make no sense (ProN rule, free SPPs, No SPPs in OT,)...or then change those rules after the season starts because the time was not taken to playtest said arbitrary rules or see if they would even make sense in the league manager. That is the stuff that pisses people off. Then you limit the playoff numbers to 2, 4, 8, 16, etc. Byes are not evil, and my set up does an excellent job of mitigating byes and rewarding the top 2 teams with a rest week. You could even make the entire playoffs a single event as there will only be 3 rounds played.A rest week?? It's not like we're suiting up and taking to the pitch ourselves. So say we can't get everyone together for playoffs, and they have to be played like the season, every 2 weeks. Now I have a bye, but I can't play until near the end of my 2 week allotment. So now I haven't played Blood Bowl for close to a month.Then your schedule sucks. I haven't played in 3 weeks right now. I'm not bitching because I understand the league does not revolve around me and my game. In fact, I have other shit to do beyond BB and have welcomed the time off. And I would welcome a bye into the second round of the playoffs, every time, regardless of the down time. The rest week is not for you, it's for any MNG players. That isn't hard to figure out. Then again, it's a casual league, why have playoffs? The spiraling expenses number was thrown out there, it may very well need to be adjusted based on how this first season plays out. I have a feeling 2000 maybe too high.
Perpetual leagues are not easy. They are complex. People must accept that they are complex. If you aren't willing to put in the work for a league that might run over a decade, then why discuss it at all. obbl.org/league/ has been running for over a decade with basically the same fucking rules. So clearly it's way too complex for anyone to understand. Oh...wait...it's not. Why do I seem pissed? Because I hear the same complexity whine every time I bring up a perpetual league scenario. And while I appreciate the ideas that came before mine (they WERE a step in the right direction) I'm against significant freebies or penalizing teams for their success. Everyone wants to be a better player, but no one wants to do the things that make a coach better. Everyone wants to develop a team, but no one wants to put in the work to develop it. It all seems to be about what can be done with the minimum amount of effort...I'll give you a hint, you get the minimum amount of return. Let's take the plunge try and make the entire league a group of strong players to challenge at these tourneys instead of staying a bunch of middling players who occasionally get shit right, myself included.I agree with the spiraling expenses. It will have to be worked out the closer we get to it. The Pre-Season, Regular Season, Post Season stuff is crap to me. Why take away games?? Why give deadlines and reguations for something as simple as a one-off pre-season game?? It's called practice. Let people play. Again, you're speaking of a competitive league. If you force shit down peoples' throats and riddle their hobby with deadlines and regulations I'll tell you what you're left with. Very few people to play Blood Bowl with.No games are being taken away. So right off the bat, you're wrong. Second, the pre-season games are not one-offs, they do not occur in a vacuum. They count and act as a way to build up a new team to be more in line with the veteran teams they will be facing once the regular season starts. People practice with their new team against other people also practicing with their new team. The "deadline" you speak of is that they have until the beginning of the regular season to get their games in, at their own pace. So your deadline reference is simply wrong. And regulations? Like playing by the rules? Because the only differences between playing in the preseason and playing in the regular season is that A) you challenge other teams instead of being scheduled, and B) if you have MNG players, you can take a rest week to get them back. Whoa, that's way too complex for reasonable players to handle. Perhaps there's an issue with counting to 4 I'm not seeing? There's really not much that changes in the post season either, except that teams that do not qualify for the post season may play one game (or take a rest week for MNG players) with any other non-qualifying team. I'm failing to see the complexity there also. Is it a counting to one thing? So why don't you form a competitive league?? You have OBBLM admin rights. I'd be in. Sounds like Frog would to. I'd help however I could. My whole goal with this thing was to get some people together to play Blood Bowl. Making everyone happy is impossible. Here's the thing, you want a casual perpetual league where people just play hippity hop with the fuck around gang and hope that everything works out in the end with no real path on how to get to the end result. When you don't know where you're going, any path will take you there. When I hear or read casual, I translate as disorganized. A pick up game or one-offs on a Thursday night. When I hear league, I translate as organized, scheduled, with a clear path to an end result. Fun and competitive are not mutually exclusive terms. Tourneys are competitive, more so than any league, and they're quite fun. I love tourneys, but if I had a choice as to what's more fun, league wins every time. More competition, more games. If I create a "competitive" league, I know the opposite will happen. I will get more players who'll have a better time. Not because I'm better than you or Vince or anyone else who's tried to start a league or tourney but because I have a clear path and vision as to how I would want that league to run. Playing with a timer does not suck the fun out of the game. Playing with a set schedule prior to the season does not detract from the enjoyment of the game. Byes are not a deterrent. Restricting models lessens the fun. Providing modicums of doubt as to the scheduling creates distrust. Changing rules after the season starts makes people want to quit. And those are facts. Side note: Why were you all for pre-Season games 3 years ago, but not now? skullgate.freeforums.org/bbl-season-ii-general-discussion-t130-10.html |
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Post by Gearhead on Mar 9, 2013 18:18:17 GMT -7
We're gonna have to agree to disagree. This post was for ideas from everyone on how we are going to bridge the team value gap for new coaches or existing coaches, who want to change teams coming into the 2nd season. I take full responsibility for getting off track. I apologize.
We have a good league here. If you don't think so, why are you playing? If you were dominating everyone and bored because of it, a lot of what you write might be relevant. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I definitely don't appreciate the "fuck around gang" comment. Or some of the other derogatory bullshit. There is a path. Play the season, manage your team, and bust your ass to get into the top 8. Playoff structure is set. The full season schedule is set, and has been for 2 weeks.
The reason I was for pre-season games 3 years ago is because all of us either just started playing Blood Bowl for the first time, or many hadn't played for a very long time. Preseason gave everyone time to get the gist of the rules and figure out what team fit their play style.
As far as what we're supposed to be figuring out, I like Frank's reference on bringing in teams at the TV of the lowest TV team. Beerox's idea is also good. We can have a TV cap and chop the top. This will definitely be something that gets decided between season 1 and 2. But the more ideas the better.
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Post by drthud on Mar 9, 2013 18:45:40 GMT -7
I am going to back up Gearhead on this. There is a respectful way to address things and I have to say with all do respect Misterhobs, you haven't been respectful in any capacity. This opinion is coming from both reading your posts and playing against you.
So just play the game and have fun. Isn't that why we play this game in the first place? I understand the dice haven't gone your way, but that happens. It has happened to all of us at some point. And so the rules aren't to you specific liking and maybe some others as well. This is the first season and I love it so far. I have my disagreements sure, but I am having a blast.
At the end of the season, maybe we all get together and discuss league and house rules together and find a compromise that works for everyone. Until then, these are the rules for the league and Gearhead is the commissioner.
So please stop acting like a child and just enjoy the hobby.
Drthud
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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 10, 2013 9:33:43 GMT -7
Perhaps my posts have been overly aggressive. However, from the little experience I have in this league so far, meek posts get ignored. While it's not an excuse, I do feel pointed points are justified based on that belief. In the interest of fairness though I will post non-aggressively.
Capping TV - I think this is causes undue issues because it means that someone who works hard developing their team, wins, and effectively manages their team gets penalized for good play. This is an especially dangerous slope if the league grows in number as the increased number of games means people could go way over the cap. Spiraling Expenses works to hinder high TV teams without being overbearing. We haven't addressed SE this season, but we can use this season as a benchmark for a solid SE foundation.
Rookie Teams at a minimum TV - I have two issues with this idea. The first is that the reason we scrapped the League SPP bonus was that there was no way to add SPPs without attaching it to something. In that sense, there will be no way to give out skills to players without doing the same. It is possible to add skills, but these skills do not add to the player value, so the TV would not reflect accurately. It was how I was able to create my dwarf team for the last tournament with a 1.1TV and have 5 skills at the same time. Second, if a team ends the season with a TV of 1.0m or less, I assume the rookie teams would come in at 1.0m, giving them nothing to start a season with other than a pat on the back.
My idea of a preseason addresses both scenarios without being overbearing. People are allowed to try a new team in a live game against others with the same TV (or thereabouts), using legitimate SPP and monetary gains without having to go against the league champ in the first week. The setup is minimal and requires no real additional time as it can be played during the previous season's postseason and the gap between seasons, providing the next season's rules are in place or are anticipated to have minimal changes.
The end result is that we should have taken the time to discuss the league as a perpetual league before the start of the league so that the rules were set moving forward. In that way, people would know what to expect in the foreseeable future.
Most tourneys in the United States use timers in some form. Typically, there is a strict 2 hour time limit. 32 turns at 4 minutes a piece is 2h8m. Timers promote efficient gameplay and help critical thinking skills by forcing a coach to think ahead in turns what their opponent will do and their response. There has been talk of holding large NAF tournaments here in the greater Denver area. If the numbers work, there will be many very good players attending, and they will have these skills. I would not want fall into a trap where I am stressed about time while my opponent is not due to many, many games using a timer. The rule I'm proposing does not force everyone to play with a timer in every game. Perhaps in a league of 12 people, only 4 want to use timers. That isn't a lot, and it's not unreasonable. Perhaps it's just me, and if that's the case, why would anyone want to alienate a single player because he or she wants to improve their skills? It is a reasonable downward compromise from mandating timers. It's not that I don't feel as though there are good players in the league, but why not contribute to the betterment of lesser players so we can all enjoy the higher level of competitiveness. Despite drthud's disappointment in our game, I thought he played exceptionally and was excited to get a new player of his caliber, same with my first game with Beerox. The dice against me have been tremendous, but my dice have been about mathematically average overall. Realistically, I'm only about 6-8 SPPs behind where I anticipated being, only about 2 TDs over 2 games. I don't count the league spps because no one received those.
The issues I've had do not stem from a particular coach, team, or rule. It comes from the application of the rules put forth. I cannot find the polls for voting for historical reference. I was sure we voted on more than just the starting date, but cannot find the evidence. However, we did not vote on the OT rules, and probably others. Rules were then changed after the start of the season. The schedule was put out after the season started. It wouldn't matter if GW itself was running the league, I would (and do) have significant issues with these items. It is this application where my respect hasn't been earned, and if GW were running the league I would respond in the same manner. Anyone who's played Fantasy, 40k, or Necromunda should be able to attest that this is the only GW game in which I am hyper-competitive to a fault. It's just my personality.
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Post by Gearhead on Mar 10, 2013 10:41:21 GMT -7
Capping TV - I guess we shouldn't call it a cap. I think the idea was meant to be a stated value. Any team over that value to start season 2 would be cut down. It would be just a one time cut. However, I agree with hobbs. It does penalize good play and management.
Rookie Teams at a minimum TV - Again the restrictions of OBBLM (or the pure fact that I'm not an OBBLM expert) rears it's ugly head.
Preseason - Just so I have this right and clear, I'm gonna throw out a few questions for you misterhobbs. You're saying to match any of the new teams in preseason games so OBBLM can bring in the SPP's?
Timers - The initial house rules I put forth added timers in match 4. I have absolutely no problems with timers. Do they make you a better player? In my case, they do. For some others, they do not. I'm back into a good refined Blood Bowl state. I will start using a timer for my next game. I almost did for this last game. At this point in time, it's a personal decision. No one has to use a timer, but if you want to, you can. I assumed that was the case when we voted on it.
As far as the rules put forth. I'll be the first to admit I'm not very good at this. But I'm getting better. The first tourney (Holiday) and this first season have had and will continue to have mistakes and some unorganized judgement. It will get better. I promise. One of my realizations was that this was on my shoulders at the beginning and I can't always get everything done. It's getting easier. It's why I scream for input around every corner. I could have easily copy and pasted a full set of rules and regulations. I'm just not that type of person. I want US to CREATE our league. Which means beating the hell out of each other and the first season. It's not pretty, but the second season and every single tourney will get better and better. I have to become better and clearer at communicating, among other things. The goal is a strong, organized plan for season 2 and beyond.
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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 10, 2013 17:40:12 GMT -7
Capping TV - I guess we shouldn't call it a cap. I think the idea was meant to be a stated value. Any team over that value to start season 2 would be cut down. It would be just a one time cut. However, I agree with hobbs. It does penalize good play and management. Rookie Teams at a minimum TV - Again the restrictions of OBBLM (or the pure fact that I'm not an OBBLM expert) rears it's ugly head. Preseason - Just so I have this right and clear, I'm gonna throw out a few questions for you misterhobbs. You're saying to match any of the new teams in preseason games so OBBLM can bring in the SPP's?
I don't understand what you're asking, could you word it a different way?Timers - The initial house rules I put forth added timers in match 4. I have absolutely no problems with timers. Do they make you a better player? In my case, they do. For some others, they do not. I'm back into a good refined Blood Bowl state. I will start using a timer for my next game. I almost did for this last game. At this point in time, it's a personal decision. No one has to use a timer, but if you want to, you can. I assumed that was the case when we voted on it.
Now that you said the match 4 thing, I quasi-remember it. Why was it taken out, I certainly would've had no problem with that situation, nor do I have a problem with other people not playing with a timer, but I think if one player wants a timer, then both should use it.As far as the rules put forth. I'll be the first to admit I'm not very good at this. But I'm getting better. The first tourney (Holiday) and this first season have had and will continue to have mistakes and some unorganized judgement. It will get better. I promise. One of my realizations was that this was on my shoulders at the beginning and I can't always get everything done. It's getting easier. It's why I scream for input around every corner. I could have easily copy and pasted a full set of rules and regulations. I'm just not that type of person. I want US to CREATE our league. Which means beating the hell out of each other and the first season. It's not pretty, but the second season and every single tourney will get better and better. I have to become better and clearer at communicating, among other things. The goal is a strong, organized plan for season 2 and beyond. |
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Post by Gearhead on Mar 10, 2013 19:16:30 GMT -7
Preseason - We are limited by OBBLM in that we can't just throw SPP's at teams, as you stated. Is your preseason game idea about letting teams play, scheduled in OBBLM, so that they can get those SPP's without effecting the regular season?
I don't think anyone will be at 1000 TV at season end. I may be totally wrong in this regard. Let's say the lowest TV team at season's end is at 1300 TV. Wouldn't we want any new teams at the beginning of season 2 to be at least at 1100 TV? That would mean that they would need probably in the neighborhood of 2 games (preseason?) to get that 100 SPP?
Timers - Timers were taken out because most of the league (80%, even several of the non-season players) were against using timers.
Balance and fun are the most important aspects to all of this. But not just in the "What team am I going to play?" regard. I am attempting to take not only the team aspect into effect, but also the coaches aspect. I love playing Chaos. They start out slow, and if they have to deal with lots of early injuries, even slower. But if you can get past that and get them rolling, they are brutal. Skaven, my other fave, can score from anywhere, anytime. But injuries can take you out at any time. It's not as safely progressive as Chaos due to the AV. I think a perpetual league that let's coaches change teams helps in this regard. If a coach plays a team that stagnates, and doesn't realize it until it happens, will lose interest. I want every coach to be able to change teams every season if they like. If they are testing out what team they are best with over the long haul of a season, so be it. I just don't want anyone to suffer a huge SPP penalty just because they are changing teams. One off seasons are great, but they don't give every coach the ability to experience every teams "good spot" of TV. IMO it helps coaches get better at developing their teams as well. Something I believe everyone is passionate about. Getting better.
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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 10, 2013 20:44:03 GMT -7
Quick response to preseason thing..yes...people earn rewards by playing, separate from regular season results and standings...walking dead time I don't think anyone will be at 1000 TV at season end. I may be totally wrong in this regard. Let's say the lowest TV team at season's end is at 1300 TV. Wouldn't we want any new teams at the beginning of season 2 to be at least at 1100 TV? That would mean that they would need probably in the neighborhood of 2 games (preseason?) to get that 100 SPP? As a point of reference, Frog's gobbos had a TV of 850 at the end of their last season in the previous league. It's not something we should plan for every season, but it can and does happen and I would rather have a universal plan in place that addresses any such scenario.Timers - Timers were taken out because most of the league (80%, even several of the non-season players) were against using timers. If they aren't playing, should their vote count?Balance and fun are the most important aspects to all of this. But not just in the "What team am I going to play?" regard. I am attempting to take not only the team aspect into effect, but also the coaches aspect. I love playing Chaos. They start out slow, and if they have to deal with lots of early injuries, even slower. But if you can get past that and get them rolling, they are brutal. Skaven, my other fave, can score from anywhere, anytime. But injuries can take you out at any time. It's not as safely progressive as Chaos due to the AV. I think a perpetual league that let's coaches change teams helps in this regard. If a coach plays a team that stagnates, and doesn't realize it until it happens, will lose interest. I want every coach to be able to change teams every season if they like. If they are testing out what team they are best with over the long haul of a season, so be it. I just don't want anyone to suffer a huge SPP penalty just because they are changing teams. One off seasons are great, but they don't give every coach the ability to experience every teams "good spot" of TV. IMO it helps coaches get better at developing their teams as well. Something I believe everyone is passionate about. Getting better. As you said, no one is locked into any one team for more than a season, so I'm not seeing a huge investment being taken away if a coach decides to switch after a season. IMO, getting that first skill is more rewarding game-wise than getting my third. That reward is removed if people are given say 300-400k of TV to start a season. The primary issue I see with the preseason, beyond the logistics of creating it in pmbbl, is if there are only 1 or 2 teams in it.Read more: pitchmasters.boards.net/index.cgi?board=seasons&action=display&thread=58&page=2#ixzz2NF84PY3F |
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Post by slidedog on Mar 11, 2013 17:58:39 GMT -7
Rethinking a bit after getting waxed in Oklahoma. We need to discuss things a little further out. Hobbs has made some good points. Let's lock down and deal with what we have for a season right now, need to stop moving the targets. He's also right in one aspect for sure, if you want to get good enough to play in even regional tournaments, the level has to go up, by a lot. But it is a hobby for me and not a lifestyle so I also see where others are coming from. I am much more a casual player and don't care if I get that competitive, just doesn't matter to me, but I am one person. If we can get more bodies I could totally see 2 leagues. One for the competitive tournament players, and one for a beer and pretzels league.
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Post by Gearhead on Mar 11, 2013 19:31:26 GMT -7
So my "reward SPP's in a tourney" was basically the same thing as a preseason. I can see how a tourney should be separate though.
The primary issue I see with the preseason, beyond the logistics of creating it in pmbbl, is if there are only 1 or 2 teams in it.
So what if we set the preseason game TV a little higher than the bottom few teams already in the league. We could then let the new teams, and any teams from the league under that TV, play in preseason? Would also help the possible team who played a season that is still at or below 1000.
I understand that our competitive level isn't compatible with the national tourney scene. I think 2 leagues would be a great idea. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to run two. I'm still trying to figure out the beer and pretzels league anyway. As far as playing in a competitive league, count me in! I'm at the point now that I want to get much, much better, but I don't know how.
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Post by misterhobbs on Mar 12, 2013 9:20:24 GMT -7
Tourneys should always be separate as you play to win one game at a time rather than playing for a set of 10 games (for example). The strategies are different and often a tourney is under heavy time restrictions and you really don't care who got the SPP, as long as those events are recorded for tourney purposes. Even when using a timer I'll stop the whole game so both coaches can record the SPPs because it's much more critical to get it right.
Allowing teams that end a previous season at 1000TV or less into a full preseason is a good thought, I can support that. I would also have no issue with not giving out extra TV...hey, you played last season, you know your team, and you had the option to switch but didn't. A rookie team is your best shot at helping yourself. I'm still wary of handing out free TV to anyone as none of us started out with it, we had to work for it. Now a possible solution would be to force the schedule into matching up the lowest TVs together in the first two weeks, then random after that, but I think that requires a tremendous amount of work on the site. We may just have to say "Sorry, fate will dictate this first season for ya" All of this is assuming we only have 1-2 new/low TV teams. At 3 teams, a full four game schedule can be played without playing the same person twice in a row.
Yes and No with our competitive level. Yes, in that I think we have several good people who could score decently at any tourney (all math being equal). No, in that we have some people that play well, but struggle because they play one way, but field a team that doesn't suit their playstyle. Or are incosistent, play well for a few turns, then do some headscratchers that cost them. Or have poor team generation skills.
The game is designed to reward people who understand math, positioning, and team generation. Finding your ideal playstyle, playing consistently well, and building a solid team helps win tourneys (and leagues). Ever notice that some people always have the right skill at the right time or a tackle zone in the most annoying spot, or only seem to fail the rolls that aren't significantly crucial...those aren't accidents (well, most of them). It's not universal, and you can't beat 6s, but really good players don't always need 6s.
While I think a "Tourney-Prep" league is a wonderful idea, the presence of it concerns me. It acts as direct competition to pitchmasters, unless you run a 7s league. Problem with 7s is that you can't use the obblm, so that would suck. Personally I hate 7s.
At any rate, two leagues, one with a fast and loose ruleset, high fantasy, craziness. The other, close to the vest, designed for competitive tourney play preparation. 12 in the league right now, best case scenario 12 in both leagues, worst case there's only about 1-3 in one league and a full league of the other.
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Post by slidedog on Mar 12, 2013 11:54:27 GMT -7
Maybe not extra TV as such but an extra bit of cash that must be spent buying skills for your players like at tourneys might make sense. 100k build + some undetermined amount to spend on skills so your players aren't complete rookies. Maybe 20k per singles skill and 30-40k per doubles skill. Just an idea. Kind of like the special draft in the NFL for an expansion team so you aren't completely saddled with nothing but rookies, you have a few vets to add some leadership.
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